But which fighter was better? Within seconds, his Me 262 began vibrating violently as the tail was buffeted back and forth. Something else entirely? As the jets began to move across Due to his boost, renewed effort and resources were put into the Messerschmitt Me262 . 1,000ft. Footage courtesy of Bill Jaskelainen, Webmaster of 339th Fighter Group Website http://www.339thfg.com/On March 20th, 1945, 451 bombers and 355 fighters of th. P-38 was a quiet comfortable plane to fly, - February 25, 2013, These are Tuskegee Airmen (left to right) 1st Lt. Roscoe C. Brown, 1st Lt. Marcellus G. Smith, and Col. Benjamin O. Davis, Ramitelli, Italy, March 1945. To confront the bombers and fighters, Jagdgeschwader 7 (Fighter Group 7) Nowotny, launched 30 Messerschmitt Me 262s from Brandenburg Briest near Berlin. The form of anonymisation is no longer acceptable. Bf-109 vs P-38 a6m-zero. The Me 262 provided them with something they had never had before speed. take-off. I don't have a resource to cite, but I recall a video interview with a then-elderly Mustang pilot who described the speed of ME262 climb and said he shot one down by out turning it and "setting up a line of 50 cal" for it to fly into. The break should start much sooner than is necessary when fighting Me 109s or Fw 190s. that first appeared in mid-1930s, first of which was Me-109. MiGs, and they were so much faster. [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] The ratio's for Mustangs was ~ 10.7:1, the P-47's ~ 7.5:1 and the P-38's were ~ 2.6:1. Your email address will not be published. In movie Red Tails, a P-51 firing head-on against a Me-262 First proposed to the air ministry in the summer of 1938 as a research aircraft to use the new BMW P 3302 gas turbine engine, Messerschmitt's Project P.1065 was pursued by a design team led by Woldemar Voigt. Today, it remains a beloved plane among aviation enthusiasts and war history buffs. Its construction was very sturdy, having armored or redundant control links. Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262. But it was designed in an era when piston engines were king. ", [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] Hope you enjoy! If you have any questions please contact us. (arlingtoncemetry.net)] crept up the fuselage to the cockpit. Messerschmitt Me 262/Bf109 vs P-51 Mustang War Thunder - YouTube 0:00 / 3:55 Messerschmitt Me 262/Bf109 vs P-51 Mustang War Thunder Kimchan7 27.8K subscribers. Welcome to the WWII Forums! Equation alignment in aligned environment not working properly. The maximum speed of a P51D was 437mph whilst the Spitfire was slightly faster at 448mph. Essentially a trials and development unit, it mounted the world's first jet fighter operations. Trials of P-51 proved it kept its speed during a dive because of its low drag There's no doubt Germans were the most advanced in aeronautical design. The Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet was a German rocket-powered fighter aircraft. 'He Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa and an old friend of Col. Rogers. Even after the Reich introduced the Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter, which was faster than any warplane in Allied hands, Brown and the other Tuskegee Airmen continued to do what fighter pilots always do: They fought aggressively. Number Two: P-51D-5-NA Mustang 44-13926, E2 S, assigned to another pilot but flown on this day by Lieutenant Urban L. ("Ben") Drew. Drew recounted: I had started shooting from about 60 450mph and the jet aircraft could not have been going over 200mph. the two planes,' said Jim Cook, master crew chief at the Pacific kill while flying in his piston-engine F-51D Mustang named Buckeye The P-51 is best known for its long-range escort duty, while the Me 262 was a significant threat to Allied forces. Messerschmitt Me 262 (Schwalbe / Sturmvogel) North American P-51 Mustang RoC (ft) 3,937 3,475 ARMAMENT STANDARD: 4 x 30mm MK 108 automatic cannons in nose section. [ref: Roscoe Brown, Candelaria], However, it soon proved its capabilities in almost every theater of war and became the most successful fighter in history, with 15,000 units produced during wartime. German Me-262 pilots reported they could not outrun a P-51 in a dive from performing well on bomber escort missions and engaging the Luftwaffe. the east-west runway and the taxiing ship got into position for a formation On 25 February 1945, Mustangs of the 55th Fighter Group surprised an entire Staffel of Me 262As at takeoff and destroyed six jets. If attacked by an Me 262, the P-51 could easily turn and maneuver inside the enemy jet, placing itself in a position to meet the jet head on or to get in a quick burst of gunfire if the enemy overshot. This was made using the World War II flight simulator IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles series. ). Report. gun and for the moment, eliminating the enemy's advantage of speed. Not really, the P-51D Mustang was certainly a good fighter. As you'll see in this interview, on March 24th, 1945, the Red Tails as they were called, were escorting a B-17 bomber squadron using P-51 Mustangs. Messerschmitt Me 262 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1a Wehrmacht Luftwaffe (German Air Force 1935-1945) JV 44 L April 1945 - Mnchen-Riem RAL7003 RAL6013 RLM76. Rogers achieved a rare MiG-15 jet he was awarded a medal, but fact was kept off official records since MiG-15 pilot seemed to be Russian. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. and also the world's first mass-produced jet fighter. defensive maneuver. I saw flames burst from the jet orifices of the enemy aircraft. degrees deflection at 300 yards and my bullets were just hitting the tail only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. kill while flying in his piston-engine F-51D Mustang named Buckeye Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. Its elliptical wings made Spitfire beautiful and turn more tightly. [ref: Air Force Airman Winter 2007] 262s led by ace Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder prepared to take off from Achmer to This was made using. The other jet aircraft was about 500 yards ahead of me and had started Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this blog contents without express and written permission from this site's author/owner is strictly prohibited. As the summer faded away into fall, encounters between Allied fighters and jet jobs slowly increased, but there was something of a cat-and-mouse nature about them. Brown, who lives in Riverdale, N.Y., and holds a doctorate in physiology, joined the Army Air Forces (AAF) in 1943, trained in Alabama, and was sent to the 332nd Fighter Group at Ramitelli, Italy. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. The P-51 is a purebred fighter, agile and fast. Another significant difference is that the P-51 was primarily used as a bomber escort, while the Me 262 was mainly used for air combat. Red Tails: P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262 Davo De Gondolin 21.5K subscribers Subscribe 81K Share 9.9M views 8 years ago Combate Areo entre los Red Tails y la Luftwaffe Pelicula: Red Tails. (C) 4 x 20mm Hispano cannons in wings. It depends on what youre looking for. Browse more videos. P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262: WE FOUGHT THE ARYAN RACES to the death..WE ARE BRAVE AND STRONG.and if THEY show up . . Forced to defend himself, he shot down two P-51 Mustang fighters. It only takes a minute to sign up. Log in or Sign up to interact with the community. North American P-51 Mustang North American P-51D Mustang US Army Air Forces (1941-1947) 375 FS, 361 FG Yellowjackets E2-D Detroit Miss (Lt. Urban L. "Ben" Drew) 1944 World War 2 - Bottisham flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which At high-altitude, FW-190 became vulnerable as it lost performance and maneuverability. Two seconds later, I saw another piece hit close to the first piece. Many P-51s evaded attacking MiG-15s by turning hard, but about twenty P-51s were shot down. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights"] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ, groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup. Please. Clicking on "Accept" authorises all profiling cookies. And both planes had wings that were swept back, allowing them to cut through the air more efficiently. to his death. (Air Force af.mil)] It acted as a long-range escort and could cover great distances to protect bombers on their missions. Star Citizen Consolidated Outland Mustang 2948. NA P-51 Mustang vs FW 190 Butcherbird Altitude = 25,000 feet61 5.10 Attrition of the Luftwaffe Fighter Force in Early 194463 . their respective air forces. Leutnant Gerhard Robert, and Oberfahnrich Heinz Russel, continued to taxi out they knew they would be completely outnumbered and [ref: Caygill]. Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. $21.87 $ 21. Reich airspace, and back, for well over 1,000 miles. When he arrived on the scene the aircraft had dispersed, so he duly joined up with some other Flying Fortresses that were lacking adequate escort. (A) 8 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. or was based on state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance and combat capability for Approximately 1400 models have been built, Menu. This was not ground strafing, btw - which other aircraft would have been better at. Not an academic comparison -- a Mustang and Corsair really were in a dog-fight. By clicking Post Your Answer, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. Hans Mehn was pursued by Mustangs back to his base and he shot down as he attempted to land. its strengths, the P-51 was more than capable of taking on the feared Me 262 on It is believed that this is the first Jet propelled aircraft to be destroyed by the RAF or RCAF fighters. During the Vietnam war from what I have read the F-4 Phantom II didn't have much of a succesful kill ratio against the more nimble MiG-17's and MiG-21's. Not sure about any others, though I would imagine the USAAF and RAF ratios in Europe were somewhat lower. Hope you enjoy! Let's find out! The Me 262, on the other hand, was designed with jet engines from the beginning, making it faster and more powerful than the P-51. Other armament of later models included the following (some trialed, some not): 2 x 550lb SC250/SD250 bombs under forward fuselage. [ref: koreanwar.org] The 332nds aircraft had distinctive markings that gave them the name Red Tails. U.S. Air Force photo. Horten Ho-229 already have features of US stealth drones (flying wing, anti-radar material, shrouded exhausts). Trials continued slowly, with initial operational missions against the Allies in August 1944, and the unit made claims for 19 Allied aircraft in exchange of six Me 262s lost. Full text of the 'Sri Mahalakshmi Dhyanam & Stotram', Minimising the environmental effects of my dyson brain, The difference between the phonemes /p/ and /b/ in Japanese, Trying to understand how to get this basic Fourier Series. A design is a team effort, still, Schmued deserves much credit, But there were actual air-to-air 262 kills: Major Walter Nowotny was assigned as commander [of Erprobungskommando 262 formed at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg, the first operational 262 unit] after the death of Thierfelder in July 1944, and the unit redesignated Kommando Nowotny. They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s. [ref: 359th Fighter Group by Jack H. Smith] document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); What are you waiting for? Answer (1 of 17): Some interesting fighters are often overlooked in discussions of three "1st generation" jets: the Me 262 (operational from 1944), F-86 (1949) and MiG-15 (1949). IMO it is hard to compare the P-51 and teh Bf-109, simply because they were designed at least until the K variant of the Bf-109 for generaly different purpouses. Google Analytics is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited ("Google"). P-38 Lightning My way being that the P-51 is probaly in the top five piston fighter aircraft in history, and yes, that is also an opinion, But the Me 262 is the first, truely sucessful jet ever. OPTIONAL: External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs. he took a lucky shot at them. By clicking on "Customise" you can select which profiling cookies to activate. Main difference was size: Spitfire small, Mustang large. Seen here minus its Junkers Jumo jet engines and surrounded by it's 30mm Mk 108 cannon shells. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. Unfortunately for them (and fortunate for us), they didnt have many of these bad boys on hand while 1,443 were produced, only about 300 saw combat. Misunderstandings about Twin Mustang was it Hit by 30mm minengeschoss : survived. Airplanes armament and equipment. out. 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings. Adolf Galland witnessed events from the ground. "He [Col. Joseph Rogers] more than made up for his lack of combat in the Korean War -- Set your Throttles to Full AB and Join The Aviation Geek Club! The P-51 Mustang was developed and built because there was a need for a new fighter plane during World War II. Lets take a look. The P-51 could only achieve speeds of up to 437 miles per hour. There is a newer edition of the book, but I do not have it.). This commission helps us to maintain and improve the forum for the benefit of our users. Which Allied aircraft scored the most air-to-air kills against the Me 262 in WWII? but it had important innovations from which it excelled. Does melting sea ices rises global sea level? Spitfire was lighter, climbed faster, more maneuverable at lower speeds. None of this prevented the 332nd Fighter Group, commanded by Col. Benjamin O. Davis, from performing well on bomber escort missions and engaging the Luftwaffe the German air force in aerial combat. Ah, the age-old question. What sort of strategies would a medieval military use against a fantasy giant? The all-important climb rate for a P51D sat at 3200ft per minute whilst the Spitfire could climb at an impressive 3650ft per minute. Not which aircraft was the best at shooting them down, which is statistically unprovable, as you rightly caution. In the air around 100 got destroyed according to what I know, and that includes those shot down while landing taking off. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights", interview of Roscoe Brown and Richard Candelaria], [ref: 359th Fighter Group by Jack H. Smith], "Mr. Yingling is a World War II veteran of the Navy and began his Air say no type of Mustang ever scored a MiG-15 kill in Korea, but Mustang pilots Maj. John Yingling and Col. Joseph Rogers claim they shot down MiG-15s. Captured on a USAAF P-51 Mustang gun camera - A Luftwaffe Me 262A being shot down (the pilot has already bailed out) in 1945 (Photo Source: Wikipedia - Impact Magazine, a . He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. First, it was a capable fighter plane, able to engage in aerial combat with enemy aircraft and support Allied bombers. I confirm that I have read, consent and agree to The Aviation Geek Club Privacy Policy. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. So fast and hard to catch that the P-51 pilots were only able to follow the a/c on landing or wait in squadron strength for the sleek birds to take off..aka "Rat Catching". Me-609, planes that were apparently destroyed twice. 111711, Wright Field (1945) PVT.Snafu. Messerschmitt Me 262-The Messerschmitt 262 Schwalbe was the world's first operational jet fighter aircraft. As I glanced back I saw a gigantic 1:21. Out of nowhere, 25 Me 262s appeared, flying over 150 miles per hour faster than they could. The briefer is Lt. (later Col.) Edward Gleed. B-17s didn't have door gunners. never circling back if they missed, maintaining their speed to stay away from diving Mustangs. US F-51 pilots trained against US jets and mentioned that scoring a hit on a MiG-15 would be very difficult: (unknown artist) wasn't surpassed until advent of jet fighters like F-86 and MiG-15. Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. The African-American airmen had long ago proven that they could fly and fight, and that they could escort bombers, but the battle in which they bagged three German jets clinched the deal. In addition, this site installs Google Analytics in version 4 (GA4) with anonymous data transmission via proxy. firing from about 400 yards, with 30 degrees deflection. its radiator inlet/outlet provided net thrust, and its streamlined airframe had extremely low drag. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. or flame come out near the right wing root. If a Me-262 ever slowed down, it became vulnerable, The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (English: "Swallow") was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. The P-51 achieved greatness at high altitude, where it was at maximum efficiency, while the Bf-109G was good at lower altitudes. He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. [ref: "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" book], real photo of P-51 with ram-jets (but in 1946 after WWII). I was always under the impression the ME262's ratio wasn't that hot as many were shot down on takeoff or landing? only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. Many incorrectly believe propeller P-51s were totally outclassed, and much slower, than Me-262 jets. Mustangs encountered and defeated every German aircraft, including the smooth, twin-jet Messerschmitt 262s. Twin Mustang was ~80MPH faster, its long range would've allowed it to escort B-29 Superfortress bombers. defensive tactics were applied, with very precise timing of each The P-51 could only achieve speeds of up to 437 miles per hour. "Mr. Yingling is a World War II veteran of the Navy and began his Air well of course wiki is wrong there were far more than 100 262's lost, have heard estimates of over 600 Allied a/c claims which all pur B.S. AVIATIA - Aircraft specifications and performance - comparison site. I like how he flew through the explosion with all the debris and stuff and his plane is left untouched. However, this event was tempered by the loss of three more jets to Mustangs on November 4. As a result, Me 262 pilots were relatively safe from the Allied fighters, as long as they did not allow themselves to get drawn into low-speed turning contests and saved their maneuvering for higher speeds. During March, Me 262 fighter units delivered large scale attacks on Allied bomber formations. [emphasis added], During March, Me 262 fighter units were able, for the first time, to mount large-scale attacks on Allied bomber formations. 111711, Wright Field (1945) PVT.Snafu. The Mustang was designed in April 1940 by a team headed by James H. Kindelberger [5] of North American Aviation (NAA) in response to a requirement of . He told some great stories about aerial combat with a Me 262. Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. Also the RAF Thunderbolts never suffered an air to air loss, but fighter oppositoin was limited. 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between One a double ace (11.5 kills), the other a triple ace (16.25 kills). was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. It definitely didn't help when at one point, a pilot took four 30mm shells and was still intact after. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. In his interview with Defense Media Network, Brown said, High-altitude escort was probably the most important mission in the war and shortened the war by about six months because it enabled the bombers to go a longer distance into Germany and destroy their infrastructure their rail hubs, oil refineries, and so on., Dr. Roscoe Brown who served in World War II as a Tuskegee Airman and flew 68 combat missions in a P-51 Mustang.
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