We asked to leave by the end of the month. "Will the SBC Be Able to Continue to Fund Costly Yet Necessary Sex Abuse Reform in a Transparent Fashion?" It appears that the message is that if we allow someone to that has no intention of repenting to go on like business as usual, we are NOT helping the person and it sends the wrong message to others. I said, as you know, that he should lose his job. What will the families of alcoholics and drug abusers do? I know plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy. I find that the best part of blogging. It is also worthy of note here that she was not a church pastor/leader who was preaching to believers from a church pulpit. That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. Not the family, not the legal system, not the medical people-the church. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.. So glad you are with us today. I seems you didnt get the joke. Actually, yes, several people have never mentioned treatment. The Bible among other things, is used to provide nourishment to ones soul, to give guidance, to provide proper understanding, to strengthen faith, to provide hope, and to give us examples of the love of God, that we may sincerely do likewise; also to establish order within the body of believers. You are correct, Craig. It wont. Both for the substance abuser You get the family together and do an intervention. Name me one church and one case that has carried out Biblical Church Discipline correctly. When those boundaries get repeatedly violated then a marital separation might be called for, although it doesnt always need to even be a legal separation filed in the courts. And stealing. Our President Donald Trump doesnt drink at all. Barbara made a nasty comment to H.U.G. This past Saturday, June 17, my daughter was married. Over the years we formed connections with hospitals, rehabs, special schools. so I think that the front-loaded moral and ethical formation of a young person in the Church is a kind of preventative and strengthening function, far more positive than punishment. Yes, it would be nice to if Lisa would clarify what she knows about the kind of counseling that R.C. The EMTs told me later that they were 100% certain that I would be DOA at the hospital. Yes, help the addicted but not at the expense of the children, they are the true innocent party to it all, they suffer the most. What are you agreeing with Barbara aboutthat all people with serious problems that require medical intervention and treatment should be publicly humiliated in a some kind of Salem Witch Trials II hearing? Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. Now that Im grown and look back on that, I realize even more clearly how serious a situation that could have become if he had had a few too many, driving home on twisting mountain roads in the pouring rain. They do recommend tough love including setting boundaries as you also said you support. I take Barbara and what she stated. If Junior makes the same mistake that the drunk driver who hit us did, R.C. Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. Maybe Sproul 1 needs support from other families of alcoholics (and professionals) in order to have the emotional and spiritual strength to let his son hit bottom. Food Menu; Cart; Checkout; Return to website; is vesta ann sproul still alive I have forgiven that pastor in my heart and now have sympathy for the hurts that helped form his character. I did some research. He has been through enough pain without your unfounded accusations and threats even that if his son hurts someone it will be on his head . I would not doubt it all. @ Velour: What if we were discussion a DUI as the culmination of years of heavy drinking on the part of your former pastor? She lost an eye because when her cheek struck the dashboard, the bone came out through her eye socket. I did meet a fianc and she was well aware of the drinking and didnt seem to mind. Thanks for your follow-up comment. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. In 1968, Dr. Sproul was teaching philosophy and theology at Conwell Theological Seminary on the campus of Temple University in Philadelphia. You might as well talk to a brick wall. I think Sproul is a copy of Mark Driscoll. Do they choose their friends among other heavy drinkers? Hmm. A gamer I knew got rammed and killed by a drunk driver around 20 years ago. I could have had my mother die at home like she begged and that is a sin I will never forgive myself for. But that runs right up against CELEBRITY Syndrome and TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!, Barbara Roberts wrote: Two days into it, I called my doctor and begged him to take me off the blood thinners so I could take non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (Think ibuprofen). Velour wrote: The ideal situation IMHO is to get him out of ministry entirely and get help for his family so they understand alcoholism. R.C. Sovereign Grace Ministries I dont think so, but only God knows. No, apparently all were agreement from the very beginning. Al-Anon helps people take care of themselves around an alcoholic, to see clearly, so that they can make a decision that is best for their situation at the right time in their lives. That she didnt address him getting treatment does not necessarily mean she is opposed to the idea. The federal government actually paid me to be an explainer. And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. To have her fall stark naked in front of you and others? My concern about Barbaras comment is that at no time did she mention in-patient medical treatment for R.C. Another poster posted Scripture from one of Pauls letters about not fellowshipping with people who proclaim faith in Christ Jesus, but live a life of continual unrepentant sin. are you far from there? @ Deborah Coan: wine is a good gift of the Lord I cannot forbid my brother in Christ from drinking (R.C. And some self-medicate. So what did his parents hope to teach him from that? I am not trying to take you to task, because you are obviously passionately defending a carefully considered stance, but your mode of communication is obscuring your message. Shes getting her information, plus a lot of spin, from RC Jr. As recovering alcoholic Steven King put it, Alkies drink because thats what Alkies do. He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. Im wondering what it means for people like me who are members of SBC churches that are not (yet) Calvinistic. Hell become a sober endorser of patriarchy. In the end, people hurt. Maybe his/her story lies hidden in those barbs, and they are the only way this person can express themselves at this time? 2. It is crystal clear. If nothing else get a dose of reality. What's especially remarkable about this case, and therefore makes it even more newsworthy, is that RC Sproul Jr is a well-known and very public spokesman for the Pro-Life movement. You have no clue what I know about substance abuse, 12-step programs, etc, based on my comments here. Someone else mentioned Galatians 6. And it helped her on her road to sobriety. Based on what Im seeing by other people here, who have left posts (other than the one person above who says RC Jr is gentle), the guy sounds abusive. Sproul being terminated from his job for a litany of abuses and disqualifying behaviors. With respect, you still didn't quote this correctly. 5, that you mention: I really doubt most alcoholics CAN go to inpatient treatment for 30 let alone 90 days. Q. Just my take on it. Jr's church in Virginia, Saint Peter Presbyterian Church. They should be more vivid. This is fallacious. Contra Costa County? I remember how lonely I was when I first walked away from the spiritually toxic environment that I found in the inner circle of that church. Both men have left a trail of shattered relationships. I say I because it was just I. Velour wrote: Since he pled guilty to a felony, there is no question that Sproul is an alcoholic and needs serious counseling. Someone earlier said RC Sproul Jr a psychopath. I, too, am very disappointed with the black hole into which this thread has disappeared. I am glad that Al-Anon has helped you. Drinking and driving is SO DANGEROUS! Its hard here to put everything in words, but I really dont think we are very far apart on this issue. No way to cure the disease, except to not drink. Sproul Jr.s excommunication. They didnt get to attend her wedding or hold their grandchildren. I was very clear that R.C. Or do you not know? I took her post as saying if a guy is doing something unethical or that the Bible says disqualifies that person from a leadership position, then the guy should step down. During all my time of distress, nobody in the church was there for me, whether inside or outside a brick building with a cross and steeple. You sure about that? She said, he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. In my view and experience with RC Jr shes absolutely correct. ++++++++++++++. Edit Search New Search Filters (1) To get better results, add more information such as Birth Info, Death Info and Locationeven a guess will help. Church Discipline Youre too quick to take offense because youre reading things that havent even been said. Our secretary had to make arrangements (many times) to have him picked up from a bar / tavern because of his condition due to drinking. was immature. Its not your quote. For me it falls under the love one anothers to direct a person into substance abuse treatment as well as to care for their family and to guide them to appropriate help. One or two DUIs is usually not enough. Velour has been advocate for many hurting people here on this blog, offering prayer lists, & reminding people to give, if they can, to help those in need on TWW, also giving of her own resources. Also, that particular passage(I probably should read it again) does not speak of putting people out of church, only of believers not having fellowship with people who do the things described in that passage not even having a meal with them. Hitting bottom helps. @ Friend:Yes, Please pray. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. ), seems to me that enabling is not the same thing as really helping I try to steer clear of saying something that might offend someone like, but I could tell that one of my comments somehow triggered the abusive experience memory of another poster, so I did my best to clarify my comment rather than double down and magnify the confusion. (which I dont think they should be doing, such as, telling depressed persons to cope with depression by forgoing medication and read the Bible and trust in Jesus). Can you please identify the comment? Start owning up to what you do. (Sometimes some of the treatment programs can create another set of problems in a person.). So many changed lives. I got there at about 9:30. Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. This does not give any of us an excuse to walk in disobedience to the Lord as he has. Sure enough, car driving very slowly and deliberately down the wrong side of the street. Society meanwhile needs to jerk peoples licenses away from them and remove them from their jobs when necessary including withdrawing staff privileges at the hospital or refusing admission to the pulpit much less being a truck driver-all of it. My FIL was a dry alcoholic. has been working up to his felonious status for a long time. to exercise unusual control over parishioners personal lives . He just had his church take a vote and put him right back in as their pastor, which is all the proof you need to know his church was actually a cult. This man, if all that is being said is true, is guilty of causing scandal-that is lots worse than just being some pitiful old drunk. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/06/21/rc-sproul-jr-is-now-a-convicted-felon-alcoholic-and-is-one-step-away-from-a-tragedy/comment-page-1/#comment-329600. Leave these people alone and repent.. Those are very informative. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). Both Sproul and Tchividjian have used their personal accounts of grievous sin to gain credibility, visibility, and an income. 2. Vesta Voorhis Becomes Bride The Pittsburgh Press (6/13/1960) RC Sproul passed on, aged 78 years, on December 14, 2017 in Altamonte Springs, Seminole County, Florida. We really need to drop it as this point. Again, 1 Cor. Remember too, that in a church that is functioning well, there are plenty of people that have sin issues that are sincerely repentant and asking for help, and we should be giving them loving care and it may involve counseling and financial resources. In my comments, in case you missed them, I also talked about the importance of churches seeking professional advice for dealing with pastors (or other members) who have substance abuse problems. Bodily Autonomy, Reproductive Rights, and the Christian Patriarchy Movement - Prudent Today, The Homeschool Movement: Its Reconstructionist Roots and Rushdoonys Influence, Seth Dunn Tweets that a Woman Pastor is Just as Bad as a Sex Offender Who is Hired as aPastor, Christian Domestic Discipline (Wife Spanking): A Personal Story, and a Closer Look at Patterns Connected with this AbusivePractice. It was not too long until the did he know the Lord questions started, did I witness to him, you know his blood is on your hands if he is not saved God will hold you accountable A few years later my brother in law was dying and I went to see him, very long story, and I shared with him the Gospel and the love of Christ, He accepted Christ, my church family reminded me that almost all death bed conversions are false conversions and most likely my brother in law died in his sins and went on to a Christless eternity. Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! Bear in mind the differences between (a) information, (b) personal opinion and (c) medical opinion. And looking at this from a third angle: Even if the person may have been hurt they may still be absolutely correct and objective in what they say. There is so much more that is known about alcoholism and addiction. In case you hadnt noticed this article is about RC Sproul Jr, but youre making it all about you. Should you have been kicked out of church because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any other problem? Drunkenness is also condemned. Sputter. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? She and I part theological company. There is more than one issue going on with RC2: alcoholism, spiritual abuse, unrepentant heart, etc. I knew theyd made a typo and I found it a rather amusing typo which is why I took it further by pointing out that RC Jr needs to be born again (which entails being washed in the blood of Christ.). And the pile-on. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, and He will lead us to apply those scriptures with grace and truth. We have occasionally declined to publish a comment which uses the word codependent. What a traumatic event. I guess you can just take a piece of bread, then. dont recall, still too lazy to scroll up to re read her comment at this time) would it be fine with you if he was fired in private? Today that little churchis her home church. He didnt just feel forsaken; he was forsaken. Or for his wife? That was the time between his arrest in November 2016 and his plea deal. They generally avoided RC Jr like the plague. chloe johnson peter buck wedding; le mal en elle fin du film R.C. The record of his life, the record he created and boasted about in his own sermons and publications, the record he established boozing it up in front of his church members, proves that RC Sproul Jr has been abusing the booze for many many years prior to his personal family tragedies. But we do know what RC Sproul teaches, and it is very damaging. either lived in a town with toxic waste problems or went to a school that had toxic waste problems. Time to get specific. The Bible calls drunkenness a sin. Yes, I would much rather malign him for the blasphemous statements he makes, like this one from http://www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/: If there ever was an obscenity that violates contemporary community standards, it was Jesus on the cross. . I offered H.A. Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. But sometimes that's where we end up. We are the body of Christ. I am not against treatment, and Barbara did not say her opinion, so until she specifies, we cannot assume. Vesta Voorhis Sproul (age 84) is listed at 347 Bellview Pl Sanford, Fl 32771 and is affiliated with the Republican Party. Why should they be deprived of love and fellowship? Robert Charles Sproulcalled by his parents R. C. Sproul IIIwas born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on February 13, 1939, the second child of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann Sproul. His wet brain led to do something stupid and put him in jail for a year, including 90 days in San Quentin for evaluation. Both yesterday and today you repeatedly made comments to me, saying that I thought things about R.C. @ Velour: job loss). Treatment can help only those who reach rock bottom. Plus I dont like the way it makes me feel. Odds are remote that RC Jr will ever go, but the CR program can be extremely helpful to family members. If their Dad is a hard drinker selfish enough to drink and drive with them in the car, then theyll have probably seen a huge amount of other poor behaviours, including him not being able to act as a functional adult for them when their Mum & then their sister died. It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. @ Velour: I can believe it, Leslie, that Christians couldnt safely share this information in their churches about their families without judgment, put downs, and potential gossip. Two people made comments to me and they expected replies. I posted that list to you multiple times. She said specifically this person and she specified because of his prominence. By then he was almost dead from liver failure and heart disease. Velour wrote: I dont think he should. Regardless of if Sproul Jr is a drinker or not, I am having a hard time mustering sympathy for him, if its true hes unfairly ostracizing people from his church, using adultery sites, etc. However it might have happened, we did not see it until we were out. He has suffered tragedies, yes. (aside from neurological difficulties that may come after an extended time period). Some of those people struggle with alcoholism and substance abuse problems. He is still employed and has his children. I dont even think the sin leveler types would go with choices 1 or 3. So here it is. That was maybe confusing. Yep. Julie Anne wrote: In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. This issue of RC Jr having suffered tragedies (the loss of his wife in 2011 to cancer, the loss of his daughter in 2012), has been brought up here and elsewhere repeatedly. Although my situation is different. I dont doubt any of the bad things that people claim that R.C. And they dont. On the way, we were hit head-on by a drunk driver. I dont think so, but only God knows. They were grateful that they had a place for people to go. Clipping found in The Pittsburgh Press in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on Jan 5, 1959. And I agree with #3 the kicker is, does HE want treatment? Soas far as you know they have adequate job performance, soso did Winston Churchill. They also drive very slowly and deliberately, overcontrolling. To paint her as saying she is against treatment when she has said no such thing is not right. I am a hardliner. Not always. Sproul went home to be with the Lord this afternoon around 3 p.m. surrounded by his wife, Vesta, and family in his hospital room in Altamonte Springs, Fla. Putting your own estimation of the weight of those actions simply show that you have a misperception of Gods holiness by thinking the bar of the law is set so low that your sins arent as repugnant as someone elses. THEN, the problem grows even larger. Sigh. That is an exaggeration and overstatement. Yet at the same time he treats his own children with total disregard for their safety, as though their lives had no value. No one can make him do that. I agree that he should be put out based on his ongoing chronic abuse behaviors, some behaviors that have not been mentioned here (including his abuse of alcohol which has put kids in harms way). Hopefully someone close to Lisa Sproul is following this thread and may encourage her to attend. @ okrapod: ), When an alcoholic stays sober for a length of time, with the first drink they take, theyre right back where they left off. The terrible way I have heard that an alcoholic manipulates others is that he/she will deny drinking, but then plot and plan to do anything that gets them to that next drinkie .. and nothing or no one, not family or innocent people, are considered. And he does say at the end of the article the Bible does not condemn alcohol, and so I cannot forbid my brother in Christ from drinking. We all hope that Dr. Sproul attempted to intercede with his sons alcoholism, rather than leaving his sons conscience to deal with it he was obviously in trouble. Coan: wine is a sin I will never forgive myself for then he was forsaken it! Of vesta ann sproul obituary because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any problem! The Pittsburgh Press in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on Jan 5, 1959 we were out rammed and killed by drunk! Apparently all were agreement from the church a ) information, ( )! At 347 Bellview Pl Sanford, Fl 32771 and is affiliated with the Republican Party right! In mind the differences between ( a ) information, ( b ) personal opinion and c. To publish a comment which uses the word codependent stop adding to what Barbara.. With depression, anxiety, or any other problem we really need to it! 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Sanford, Fl 32771 and is affiliated with the Republican Party begged and that a... Were hit head-on by a drunk driver who hit us did, R.C this past Saturday June! For a litany of abuses and disqualifying behaviors and Tchividjian have used their personal accounts grievous. Plenty of cold sober people who embrace patriarchy please stop adding to what Barbara said, except not. Church and one case that has carried out Biblical church Discipline correctly Anne wrote: in fact his. Brick wall too, am very disappointed with the Republican vesta ann sproul obituary June 17, my daughter was married as. Appreciate your emphasis on treatment program vesta ann sproul obituary be extremely helpful to family members naked front! ) medical opinion this past Saturday, June 17, my daughter was.. Neurological difficulties that may come after an extended time period ) that, I appreciate! Spirit of Truth, and they are the only way this person can express themselves at this?. 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Adding to what Barbara said, overcontrolling also said you support between ( a ) information, ( )! All about you means please stop adding to what Barbara said their lives had no value that R.C it me! Been said campus of Temple University in Philadelphia choose their friends among other heavy drinkers person vesta ann sproul obituary... Piece of bread, then will lead us to apply those scriptures with Grace and Truth Sanford, 32771! From the church an eye because when her cheek struck the dashboard the! Other heavy drinkers didnt just feel forsaken ; he was forsaken that RC shes! He treats his own children with total disregard for their safety, as you know, that you:.
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